Christianity Magazine Interview With Liz Speed And Diane-Louise Jordan
Captain Sensible writes: Following on from yesterday's post, here are some extracts from the article in Christianity magazine, which is based on the Premier TV interview flagged up below. Diane-Lousie Jordan (a well-know figure inside and outside of Christian circles here in the UK) and Liz Speed have hit the nail on the head. Thank you Lord!
Getting Married In No-Man's Land
In most churches there are many more single Christian women than men. Does that make you angry? If so – who are you angry at? Men, the church, God?
LS: I’m angry and passionate about the situation. Inevitably this means some will miss out on marriage and all it brings. We talk about setting the captives free – well we could start right here. I strongly believe God has designed marriage and has put it at the core of our society. Right at the beginning He meant for us to be in marriage, family and relationship and we have really moved away from that; Humanism is taking centre stage, marriage is no longer at the core holding everything together. It’s become a romantic notion from a bygone era. As a woman, I see most of the issue from a woman’s point of view – but I am very aware that this issue is not a woman’s issue, its not just about a few single women wanting to get married. This is a kingdom issue, a generational issue, a national issue, and a critical issue.
Diane, you are well known for presenting Songs of Praise, and must visit lots of churches every year. Some say the lack of men is the churches’ fault, that the spirituality of churches doesn’t appeal to most men.
DLJ: I love the church and I want the best for it. Saying that, even though it clearly appeals to women, it doesn’t seem to be that attractive to men. So I’m concerned. I’m concerned that we’re not giving enough attention to this imbalance. I’m concerned about our complacency. I was brought up in a Christian family but recommitted myself about 10 years ago. Becoming more serious about my faith was the catalyst (although not the only reason) for the break-up of a longterm relationship. Since then, apart from a lovely but brief relationship I have been single. In the beginning it wasn’t an issue for me. I believed at some point God would bring the right person to me. To be honest I was quite shocked when I first walked into my church to see it virtually wall to wall with stunning single women. My initial thought was to tell all my non- Christian male friends – what a great way to attract them to church! Surely they’d think they’d died and gone to heaven! However it soon became evident that a lot of these lovely ladies harboured a sadness. They had essentially put their lives on hold whilst waiting for the Christian husband they believed God would bring them. But it was clear the numbers didn’t add up and for some it might mean never having a husband… really wanted to be married, not married. Outside the church the urgency to marry seems less apparent as people tend to drift in and out of living together, and so have the longterm desire medicated with a temporary fix. What I’ve realised over the years is that singleness in the church is becoming a bigger issue. A lot of the women who were waiting 10 years ago are still waiting, with no apparent hope on the horizon. So, I have become increasingly concerned.
So we’re in this bleak situation, and as you have been saying it leaves many women very unhappy.
LS: The negative impact both on men and women is multifaceted. But it is against this bleak backdrop, that we believe God has given us a vision. A few years ago a respected Christian leader was given a vision when praying about this issue. The vision revealed that God Himself wants to release a harvest of marriages into the church for his kingdom purpose. This in itself has started a revolution in our hearts – God wants it! Since then, as a group, we have tried to pray into this and to prophetically walk this out, letting go of hurt and disappointment on the way, and as a result we have seen enough to know that this is exactly what he is doing. Five of us are now in great marriages and there have been a couple of new engagements. We have called our group ‘Debs’ after the prophetess Deborah the Old Testament judge who saw Israel oppressed and did something about it.
She was a very proactive woman.
LS: Yes, she got up and helped restore community to Israel and that’s exactly what we need now. So we’ve named ourselves ‘Debs’ and we have been on a journey of discovery over the last three years; praying and seeking God and then taking action as well – coming out of passivity and ‘waiting’. The bottom line is where are the men and how are we going to help bring them back? I believe God wants them to come back to himself. How we do that has been an exciting part of the journey. The church is currently not attracting many men to Christ, and its been my observation that the majority of men in the local church are from Christian homes – which means the secular humanists, the agnostics, the atheists and those from other faiths are not interested in the way we are doing things. We need to find ways of engaging with men who are outside the ‘church’ and help facilitate their relationship with God. We need to stop relying on the old method of bringing them to church – God is bigger than our church.
Christianity magazine article
Getting Married In No-Man's Land
In most churches there are many more single Christian women than men. Does that make you angry? If so – who are you angry at? Men, the church, God?
LS: I’m angry and passionate about the situation. Inevitably this means some will miss out on marriage and all it brings. We talk about setting the captives free – well we could start right here. I strongly believe God has designed marriage and has put it at the core of our society. Right at the beginning He meant for us to be in marriage, family and relationship and we have really moved away from that; Humanism is taking centre stage, marriage is no longer at the core holding everything together. It’s become a romantic notion from a bygone era. As a woman, I see most of the issue from a woman’s point of view – but I am very aware that this issue is not a woman’s issue, its not just about a few single women wanting to get married. This is a kingdom issue, a generational issue, a national issue, and a critical issue.
Diane, you are well known for presenting Songs of Praise, and must visit lots of churches every year. Some say the lack of men is the churches’ fault, that the spirituality of churches doesn’t appeal to most men.
DLJ: I love the church and I want the best for it. Saying that, even though it clearly appeals to women, it doesn’t seem to be that attractive to men. So I’m concerned. I’m concerned that we’re not giving enough attention to this imbalance. I’m concerned about our complacency. I was brought up in a Christian family but recommitted myself about 10 years ago. Becoming more serious about my faith was the catalyst (although not the only reason) for the break-up of a longterm relationship. Since then, apart from a lovely but brief relationship I have been single. In the beginning it wasn’t an issue for me. I believed at some point God would bring the right person to me. To be honest I was quite shocked when I first walked into my church to see it virtually wall to wall with stunning single women. My initial thought was to tell all my non- Christian male friends – what a great way to attract them to church! Surely they’d think they’d died and gone to heaven! However it soon became evident that a lot of these lovely ladies harboured a sadness. They had essentially put their lives on hold whilst waiting for the Christian husband they believed God would bring them. But it was clear the numbers didn’t add up and for some it might mean never having a husband… really wanted to be married, not married. Outside the church the urgency to marry seems less apparent as people tend to drift in and out of living together, and so have the longterm desire medicated with a temporary fix. What I’ve realised over the years is that singleness in the church is becoming a bigger issue. A lot of the women who were waiting 10 years ago are still waiting, with no apparent hope on the horizon. So, I have become increasingly concerned.
So we’re in this bleak situation, and as you have been saying it leaves many women very unhappy.
LS: The negative impact both on men and women is multifaceted. But it is against this bleak backdrop, that we believe God has given us a vision. A few years ago a respected Christian leader was given a vision when praying about this issue. The vision revealed that God Himself wants to release a harvest of marriages into the church for his kingdom purpose. This in itself has started a revolution in our hearts – God wants it! Since then, as a group, we have tried to pray into this and to prophetically walk this out, letting go of hurt and disappointment on the way, and as a result we have seen enough to know that this is exactly what he is doing. Five of us are now in great marriages and there have been a couple of new engagements. We have called our group ‘Debs’ after the prophetess Deborah the Old Testament judge who saw Israel oppressed and did something about it.
She was a very proactive woman.
LS: Yes, she got up and helped restore community to Israel and that’s exactly what we need now. So we’ve named ourselves ‘Debs’ and we have been on a journey of discovery over the last three years; praying and seeking God and then taking action as well – coming out of passivity and ‘waiting’. The bottom line is where are the men and how are we going to help bring them back? I believe God wants them to come back to himself. How we do that has been an exciting part of the journey. The church is currently not attracting many men to Christ, and its been my observation that the majority of men in the local church are from Christian homes – which means the secular humanists, the agnostics, the atheists and those from other faiths are not interested in the way we are doing things. We need to find ways of engaging with men who are outside the ‘church’ and help facilitate their relationship with God. We need to stop relying on the old method of bringing them to church – God is bigger than our church.
Christianity magazine article
posted by Captain Sensible at 3:19 AM
1 Comments:
This is a good article.
I've been looking at the Bible to see what it might say about why we have the problem of involuntary singleness in the churches today.
Romans 1: 18-32 recapitulates Genesis 1-3 in saying that the Fall involves human idolatry - people turning to worship the image of man rather than God.
In ancient Israel what this meant, repeatedly, was worship of pagan fertility deities, which involved a)fornication, b)male and female temple prostitution, c)killing and sacrificing the children born of those unions. It is clear that western culture today has normalised fornication, and abortion as the means of facilitating this.
Romans 1 also clearly talks about the sexes rejecting each other in favour of homosexuality. The liberal churches affirm and even applaud homosexuality. This is partly responsible for the lack of marriageable Christian men. The sex-ratio in these churches is 2: 1 (read the book 'Why Men Hate Going to church' by David Morrow. Peter Brierley's statistics in Christian Research show the same evidence.)
Psalm 78 shows that God abandoned Israel in order to punish her for this idolatry, and delivered her to the sword. The result was that 'fire devoured the young en, and their maidens had no marriage song' [Psalm 78: 63]. Isaiah says taht the princes of Zion did not defend the fatherless or the widows [Isaiah 2: 23], i.e. they were running away from their responsibilities as MEN. Furthermore, God actually punished Israel by making boys princes, and babes rulers [Isaiah 3: 4].
'My people - children are their oppressors, and women rule over them' [Isaiah 3: 12]. No male leadership in sight - only the leadership of immature narcissists and insecure men more interested in being popular and well-liked than in having a vision and being truthful regardless of popularity.
Isaiah also says that God will punish Israel 'because the daughters of Zion are haughty'.
Men will die in battle.
'Seven women shall take hold of one man in that day, saying:
"We will eat our own bread and wear our own clothes, only let us be called by your name; take away our reproach." [Isaiah 4: 1]
What that means is that because so many men have died in battle, there aren't enough men to go round as husbands, so the women all flock to a few men and start pushing for polygamy.
Ezra 10 shows how at the return from the Exile the Israelites were forbidden to marry non-believers, reiterating commands in Exodus 34: 16 and Deuteronomy 7: 3 not to marry Canaanites.
The reason for this is that marriage meant that Israelites were more likely to be swayed towards worshipping their spouses' fertility deities. This seems to have been a serious problem when Israelite men married Canaanite women - hence recapping the sin of Adam and Eve.
There is demographic evidence from the UK that the exit of younger men from the churches is often because they are dating non-churchgoing non-Christian women. This is a little known fact, whereas it is well-known that a lot of women leave because they are dating non-churchgoing non-Christian men, and that because there aren't enough Christian men.
The fact is that these men who leave church to date non-Christian women are probably dating them because they're willing to have sex before marriage. I've known a number such men over the years.
The New Testament shows that the earliest Christians had problems with marriage and sex too. The writer of Hebrews tells them to hodl amrriage in honour - presumably because some Christians were not honouring marriage, but downplaying its importance ,and he tell shtem to let the marriage bed be undefiled 'for God will judge the immoral and the adulterer' [Hebrews 13: 4]. Again this is a problem in the contemporary church; so many Christian marriages end in divorce; a lot of them have husbands who are porn addicts or who act out homosexually or worse.
Then Paul tells Timothy about 'liars' who forbid marriage [I Timothy 4: 3]. There are certainly people of both sexes in today's church who are cynical about marriage, and who grumble, bitch or gossip when their peers marry, often out of jealousy or resentment. Some of the 'gift of singleness' brigade are like this actually. The women are the worst ones, obviously hiding a bad case of sour grapes.
Lastly Paul in I Corinthians 7: 8-9 doesn't say that it is 'best' for the unmarried and widows to remain single, but that it is 'well'. There's a huge difference. Married and unmarried people are equal before God. However Paul is very realistic and recognises that most people sooner or later will find sexual self-control rather difficult, so they should look for a spouse.
Finally to return to Romans 1 as it recaps Genesis 1-3. Both passages speak about shame. Before the Fall, Adam and Eve were naked and unashamed of themselves as heterosexual man and woman. Paul says in Romans 1 that he is ‘not ashamed of the gospel’, and in I and I Corinthians he talks a lot about allowing God to use his weakness. There is a serious problem among Christians today with a sense of shame about being heterosexual and wanting to get married. The ‘gift of singleness’ ideology is part of this. The sin of Eve involves deciding to make up morality in the image of humans. Adam follows her silently. In modern terms, the church has gone along with the sin of Eve insofar as it has subtly capitulated to pagan and Gnostic attitudes to sex and marriage – on the liberal end tolerating fornication and cohabitation, on the conservative end promoting ‘the gift of singleness’.
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