Just Wondering...
Comment posted on Debbie Maken's blog:
"What is painfully obvious to me is that there are a lot of attractive, intelligent, serious in their faith, single women who are not even getting asked out on dates by believing men. (What makes this harder is that we are getting asked out by attractive, intelligent secular men.) "
Does this remind anyone else of the wedding banquet in the Bible, where the invited guests all make excuses, so the host sends his servant out to find people in the street to invite instead? Yes? No? Maybe it's just me...???
Are these "secular" men believers? (Even if they are not regular church-goers.)
If so, well what does the Bible say?
We mustn't be yoked with UN-believers, right?
Just raising the point...
"What is painfully obvious to me is that there are a lot of attractive, intelligent, serious in their faith, single women who are not even getting asked out on dates by believing men. (What makes this harder is that we are getting asked out by attractive, intelligent secular men.) "
Does this remind anyone else of the wedding banquet in the Bible, where the invited guests all make excuses, so the host sends his servant out to find people in the street to invite instead? Yes? No? Maybe it's just me...???
Are these "secular" men believers? (Even if they are not regular church-goers.)
If so, well what does the Bible say?
We mustn't be yoked with UN-believers, right?
Just raising the point...
posted by Captain Sensible at 5:11 PM
13 Comments:
The secular men I was talking about are regular Jewish men, who might believe in God, and might not.
My problem is this: compared to other countries, where the default faith for many is church and Jesus, that's not the case here in Israel. The chances of randomly stumbling upon a person who believes in our Messiah in Israel are slim.
However, having read your blog, I've taken your suggestions to heart.
I used to think that going out on a date with an unbeliever who asks me, and speaking about my faith was out of the question ("missionary dating" being a bad idea and all). So I would turn down these dates, usually telling the person why I couldn't go out with them (I would tell them very briefly about my faith). But I'm reconsidering my stance on that. I'm reconsidering actually going out with an unbeliever, and sharing about my faith at length (as I do with most people, but as I've never thought to be with someone intersted in me!)... and seeing how they respond.
I think it's potentially a very (spiritually) dangerous situation fraught with issues, and I definitely would not recommend this to weak/new believers (where the one date could deteriorate into missionary dating, with the person deluding themselves into thinking that the one they're dating is interested in the faith, and then being pulled away from God by their new boyfriend/girlfriend -- because I've seen that happen). Another issue: if in the end, the person did become a believer, how long would it be before they were "properly tested" as Christians (as my pastors point out is necessary before considering marriage to someone, because you don't want to marry someone who will fall away from the faith)?
But all in all, it's a novel idea worth prayerfully exploring. Thanks again, Captain Sensible.
Blessings,
Jen
hey jennifer;
i understand your feelings jennifer but as a brand new christian i find the thought of marrying an unbeliever to be a bad idea, no matter how tempting it is! (i'm just assuming right now that missionary dating is not involved)
i believe that it would be a very lonely marriage, spiritually speaking, because as a new christian who is going through a long process of learning, i really need the guidance of a believing christian male if i were in a marriage, to sustain me in my faith. otherwise i might run the risk of straying away from the faith because i would be all on my own with my faith and he would want to instill his faith in the family (only assuming that if missionary dating did work at first but then he reverted back to his faith early in the marriage).
then you would have to handle your children being taught a faith you don't believe in. and if not, go through a bitter divorce.
can one really go through this? is this any easier than remaining single? being single is agonizing enough most of the time :(:(
Hi Shazia - I don't have time at the moment to respond to Jennifer, but I have posted your comment as I feel some clarification is required quite urgently!
No one is talking about marrying an unbeliever, or a man of a different faith.
That would be unscriptural and wrong.
I understand that Jennifer's situation is different, as she is based in Israel.
I am referring to men in the (Christian) world, who believe in God, believe in Jesus, and usually say that they pray, but who do not go to church, probably because the church has such an awful image (it does in the UK at least!).
I would also mention that being a regular church-goer, and an apparently strong Christian, is no guarantee that a man will not backslide, so there are no guarantees, ever!
We need to rely on prayers and encouragement.
I would also add that a new Christian is often like a sponge and shows remarkable growth in a very short space of time.
God wants men to marry and be leaders, so I think we need to trust that He would then bring a BELIEVER up to speed super-quickly in such a scenario.
As to which stage in the process a woman decides he is marriable is up to the individual, in my opinion.
Anyway, sorry, I have just dashed this off, but I am gratefully aware now of the need for further clarification on this issue.
Blessings to you.
Speaking from personal experience, I would advise against getting involved with a man who is a believer mostly in the Romans 10:9 sense, who may have a casual attitude toward the obedience aspect of having a relationship with Jesus. I once dated, and made many excuses for, such a man, and it led to my being heartbroken. It is not something I will do again. (Of course, this man, unlike many "strong" believing men, actually demonstrated courage by asking me out, but that is another story.) My study of the Scriptures leads me to believe that husbands are ultimately charged with the responsibility of providing spiritual leadership in the home, and whenever believing women marry men whose faith is weaker, they are taking a risk. I know a few women in such marriages, and it has been difficult: They don't get the spiritual support they would like from their husbands, and they bear the entire burden of teaching their children about Jesus and ensuring that they go to church. I would very much like to be married one day, but I think this kind of compromise comes at too high of a price. I realize some women marry initially weak believers who by the grace of God become strong and provide good leadership for their homes, but I fear they are in the minority.
Hi Gillian - Couple of things I would say quickly!
Getting heartbroken comes with the territory of falling in love. There is no insurance against that -- not with a strong, committed Christian or even trying your best to keep your emotions somewhat in check.
The other thing is - yes, of course, this is not an ideal situation for Christian women and it is difficult. But then, is being a barren spinster easy? Is going through the menopause alone without ever having had a child of your own to hold easy?
Also -- given that I believe it is Scriptural to marry a "believer" only, then are Christian women in danger of now disobeying the command to go forth and multiply if a godly man is rejected just because he is not a regular church-goer at present? I do not believe it is God's will for the Body of Christ to be so heavily female. So that would indicate the men ARE out there! Shouldn't women be bringing in that harvest (instead of wasting their time with Christian men that are too scared to commit!)?
Food for thought, that turns the whole argument around to a degree!
;)
But then, is being a barren spinster easy?
can't begin to think of that :(
Is going through the menopause alone without ever having had a child of your own to hold easy?
same answer as above :(
Also -- given that I believe it is Scriptural to marry a "believer" only, then are Christian women in danger of now disobeying the command to go forth and multiply if a godly man is rejected just because he is not a regular church-goer at present?
Actually that is a question to think about; let me try to put it this way: as much as I agree with gillian's reservations about not marrying a man who is spiritually weaker than you, but albeit Christian and non-church-attending, i am starting to think that marrying a non-Christian altogether is even worse.
My problem is that as a woman, you cannot necessarily marry into another faith without the father's faith dominating the house. Let's say a Christian woman marries a Muslim man. In the Muslim culture, the children MUST be brought up Muslim. How is the Christian woman going to handle her children being brought up in a faith that is not reconcilable with Christianity?
That is just as bad as being a barren spinster or going through menopause without having had a child of one's own! So what's a devout Christian woman to do? The agony associated with a wrongly pursued marriage can leave scars for life. (Gosh, so much pain here!)
on the other hand, i think i still agree with gillian's opinion! in spite of the fact that i stand by the rest of what i said in my post.
Shazia - I am sorry for being unclear. I am quite tired today! I'll try and explain again.
I am NOT talking about marrying a Muslim.
I am talking about a man that is a believer in God (OUR God!) but is not "churched" ie. he is a believer but has been put off church, perhaps by the general perception of "church" in our culture, but still has faith in OUR God.
Hope that helps. On NO account am I talking about even dating a Muslim man, and it worries me that I might be doing more harm than good if people reading this blog think that I am recommending marrying Muslims (or men of any other religion, or even no religion!).
Hope I have made it clearer this time!
BELIEVERS IN OUR GOD ONLY!
:)
Captain Sensible,
I'd like to take this opportunity to thank you for this blog, as you are using it to bring attention to teaching concerning singleness in the Church that is unbiblical and especially harmful to women.
You brought up some good points in your rebuttal to my previous post.
I agree that heartbreak is always a possible consequence of entering into romantic relationships, even where they are comprised of two strong believers. However, the heartbreak I referred to was a direct consequence of my dating a weak believer that was disobedient to Jesus Christ, and it is the worst I have ever experienced. Thank God the relationship didn't lead to marriage.
I'll also provide additional details regarding the children of the women I know who are married to weak believers. Each has multiple children who are now adults (20s and 30s), and each has at least one son. Guess what? So far, none of the sons is a Christian. This could be due to many factors, but I certainly don't think it is unreasonable to say that it possibly stems from their not having strong Christian role models in their fathers. These mothers are devastated about their sons, whom may never become Christians. Based on these situations, it seems that this kind of household is especially dangerous with respect to the Christian development of male children.
I absolutely want to be a mother, and the fact that I may never experience the privileges of marriage and motherhood is beyond hurtful. I realize there are no guarantees related to the salvation of our children, even where both the father and mother are strong Christians and the father is the household's spiritual leader, but I can honestly say that I would rather never marry and have children than marry a weak believer, have children (sons in particular), and raise them in an environment that in my opinion is contrary to God's ideal and fraught with spiritual risk -- in spite of my best efforts to teach them about Jesus.
Hi, again
Sorry if I was unclear with my comment. I definitely did not mean to say I would have a relationship with a man who was not a strong believer in Jesus Christ.
What I meant to say was: instead of brushing off the unbelieving men who ask me out with a brief explanation about my faith, I could actually go out with them on one date, and explain about my faith, in depth, and see where they stand. If they believe in God and have a relationship with Him (maybe they pray, but don't know about Jesus), if they are interested in learning about the Messiah (or already believe in Him) and if they eventually become strong believers... well, then either I've done myself a favour, or I've done a favour to some other single believing woman.
Thanks for your concern, Shazia and Gillian, I really appreciate it. I've also seen what a relationship between unequally yoked believers can be like, and I would not choose it for myself. I simply meant to say, like Captain Sensible pointed out, that it's possible that there are strong believing men out there who don't go to church.
I actually know some people to whom the Lord revealed Himself. They were alone, they didn't realize there were other Jews who believed in Jesus, and what it took was some "fishing" to bring them into the fold.
Gillian, thank you, I appreciate your encouragement.
I think the point I am making is that nowadays we equate the instruction in the Bible to not be yoked with an "unbeliever" to "non church-goer".
In the UK, we have seen an exodus of 38% of believing men from our churches over the last 20 years. In the 20s and 30s age group, this figure jumps to 50%. The statistical projection is that in just 23 years' time, we will have zero men in our churches.
I do not believe this is God's will, so that would indicate to me that the men are out there -- they are just not in our churches!
This is also supported by my experiences in street pastoring, where so many young men come up to us, desperate for the opportunity to talk about God but wary of "church" because of the poor perception they have of it. A believing girlfriend could be just what they need.
Also, a godly woman I know told me of a dream she had, where she felt God saying that the desires of women's hearts would not be satisfied by the land that we have already cultivated. We need to look to the harvest in the wider land that surrounds us.
And she recounted that to me before we had any conversation about this subject, although it was uppermost in my mind at that time!
To go back to your comment, in all honesty, I do think the points you raise - disobedience to Jesus, sons that are not yet Christians - could occur with a strong, committed Christian man too.
And in fairness, another situation that could occur (and has occurred in two cases I know of) is for the believing man to grow in his faith with the prayerful support of his wife to such a degree that both men are now very strong Christians and are working very hard to bring other men to Jesus Christ. (Something that "churched" men seem somewhat unable or unwilling to do!)
So, to sum up: The choice of who a woman agrees to date and then marry is up to her. I am just trying to point out that the Bible says we must not be yoked to an "unbeliever". Anything beyond that is, I believe, down to the individual woman's decision, and I am just a bit wary of the danger of adding stricter rules than actually exist in the Bible.
Thanks once again for reading the blog! We have much work to do ahead of us to restore the contemporary church's wrong teaching on singleness to the Biblical blueprint, so I hope you are up for the spiritual and physical challenges ahead!
God bless and my prayer for you, and for all the Christian women that read this blog, is "May the LORD grant that each of you will find rest in the home of (a) husband" and be a "happy mother of children".
Hi Jen - I particularly feel for you as I think the Jewish people are especially hard to reach. I can't remember what Bible passages this relates to, but I remember R.T.Kendall saying something about they have a "double" blindness.
It is up to every woman to decide on this issue, but I note you say you would not have a relationship with a man who was not a "strong" believer in Jesus Christ.
But the Bible doesn't say anything about "strong" believers -- it just says not be yoked with an UNbeliever.
Also, reseach from Christian Vision for Men has indicated that men need to hear the gospel about 8 times before they are ready to commit. So maybe giving a man just one date/opportunity is not enough? Also remember that we can preach the gospel through our actions as well as words, so it may not necessarily be achieved through explaining about your faith on its own, but the way you conduct yourself may be powerful too. That has also been the experience of a woman I know whose fiance said it was watching her put her faith into action that had such a strong impact on him and his faith.
Blessings to you in beautiful Israel and thanks for sharing the encouraging testimony about how God is at work!
My boss, one of the most godly men I know, and a formerly practicing priest, is strongly of the opinion that in a Christian household, it is often the woman who shapes the faith of the home.
This is not to say that men don't need to be spiritual leaders -- they do. But I do agree with Captain Sensible in saying that "unchurched" men aren't necessarily to be relegated to the category of "non-Christian," and that when put with a Christian girlfriend or Christian wife, that might be the push an "unchurched" guy needs to step up to the plate.
After all, there's not always much to attract certain kinds of believers to the church as it is. For large blocks of time over the past six years, I could have been, and sometimes still can be, considered "unchurched," in the sense that I don't attend a church regularly; but I am a strong, practicing, believing Christian. I take my faith seriously. I study my Bible. I discuss it with my friends, believing and unbelieving alike. Many of my Christian friends fall into the same category as I do.
Here in the US, the problem with Christians my age (20s and 30s) is that the ones who stick around in church tend to be bland, sheltered, and boring. They avoid interesting hang-out places, have nothing interesting to talk about, and often spend their whole lives -- work, fun, and volunteer -- inside the walls of the church building. Salt of the earth? Spam of the earth, more like.
My difficulty with fellowship has been finding Christians who are like me, because they all seem to have fled the church too. Where do I find them, then? How? They have to exist, because I exist. And the kind of guy I'm interested in dating and marrying, he and I could probably find a church together. He probably isn't even a "weak" Christian; just a fed up and disgusted one, like me; he is, perhaps, as my boss says, a more masculine kind of guy who is repulsed by the "overfeminization" (and I'm referring to the practices, not the population) of the church. But the guys who generally attend church regularly still live with their parents.
And about the rearing of children: Kids are going to make their own decisions, no matter what kind of home they were raised in. I was raised in a solid Christian home where my dad was the spiritual leader, but my sister walked away from the faith, and it was her choice. And there's no way I would rather my parents hadn't had her. She's one of the greatest delights of my life, believer or not. And I have faith for her. I remember the Proverb, "Train up a child in the way he should go, AND WHEN HE IS OLD he will not depart from it" (emphasis mine). Childhood and old age...there's a big long gap in the middle there, where anything could happen, and we're not granted the knowledge to judge the whole story based on the immediate moment.
As for me, I'll take the risk. I think any child deserves the chance to be born, to grow up, to live, and to make his or her own decision as a free being: to stay, or to leave...and to come back. And even if they leave and never do come back to the faith, they're still loved, by the Father, and hopefully by their families. The prospect of a child losing his or her soul is indeed terrifying; but that's never up to us in the end; I'm told we do our best, pray a lot, and trust our kids to the Father.
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